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 Post subject: bricked after FW-update?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:56 am
Posts: 7
Hello!

This is my forst post. Google sent me here, after looking up my problem ...
Hope you folks have any ideas for me, because I think LaCie support won't quite help me until next year :-(

My 5Big Network2 reminded me of an firmware-update 2.2.10.1 (I was running 2.2.9.3 or 2.2.9.4 before)
I clicked the update button, and waited some time, and after it hit 100% there was the strange message "The update takes longer than expected. Please close this page and try again."

So i closed the browser page, and tried to open it again, but my 5Big didn't respond any more! After checking my router I saw, that it doesn't get a dhcp address any more.
The front led did a strange blinking cycle, that wasn't covered in the FAQs: blue-pause-blue-long pause- ...
The HDD-leds didn't blink at all.

After some minutes of this blinking, I power cycled the device with the same results. blue-pause-blue-long pause-...
I then turned it off for 30sec and turned it on again, but now it doesn't do anything. No blinking leds at all. Only the ethernet-leds start up, as soon as I plugin the cable.
Anyway, my router doesn't show the 5Big, so I assume it doesn't start up at all.

Has anyone an idea for me? Is there any chance of repairing this myself? Perhaps forcing the firmware-update from a capsule-file on a usb-stick? Or forcing the contents of the capsule-file onto the nas through some other method?
As I don't have a backup of the data on the 5Big, I am a little nervous ...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:40 pm 
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Posts: 134
Hi,

You have no leds at all? Only ethernet?
No blue light on the front, no leds on the disk, just the green ethernet?

Strange that appears to be a power issue, but since the power was working as you described is strange it seems the system doesn's start the disks at all.

Maybe with clunc you can access the nas: http://lacie-nas.org/doku.php?id=clunc

Reggarding the data

It's pretty possibel the disks are ok, but that you have to check.
I recovered my disks in a 2 big network (2) more that 3 times. They were in Raid 0 (2 disk concatenation).

In my case i used a linux live USB (Ubuntu for example) to mount the raid system in your case 5 disks ... .
Don't try to mount them in windows or in a linux VM you can trash the data!
Check this post viewtopic.php?f=156&t=1811

But probably @Mijzelf can help you more with this. He was the one that saved me the first time.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:56 am
Posts: 7
You are right - no leds, but the ethernet-leds! really really strange ...
Also the fan above the HDD-slots is not starting up. But I don't know if this is normal, if the system is cold. The power brick should be fine, as the system is only 6 months old. I had a lot of trouble with power bricks of other 5big (non-network-types), but they only occured after 2,5 years.

About the data, I think so too.
My 5big Nas2 came without disks, so it would be logical that the firmware resides on a flashrom instead of the HDDs. Therefore, the HDDs should be untouched by the fw-upgrade.

After some testing I removed all the HDDs to prevent potential data loss. Then I tried some things:
With the LaCie Network Assistant software, there is a recovery option. If google is right, this works via tftp.
The interesting thing is, even if the 5big does not seem to get a dhcp-address (according to my router), if I start the LNA recovery, the ethernet-led on the 5big blinks every 2 seconds. However no data transfer starts :-(
If I close the LNA, the blinking stops.

I tried to use a crosslink-cable and a normal switch between pc and 5big, giving the pc a 192.168.1.x address, assuming the 5big has a fallback address of 192.168.1.150 (I read this somewhere on the net). Then, following these directions (http://g300nh.blogspot.co.at/2010/06/fi ... overy.html), I manually did an ARP binding to the 5bigs MAC.
But LNA still does not start a recovery.
I also tried to PUT the capsule directly on the 5big through tftp.

So, next step will be clunc, I guess, and then I'll go on holiday vacation and wait for a reply of lacie. I hope the problem is covered by warranty, if I can't solve it myself ...
At least I can wait to access the data, as its not high priority :-)

Oh, and perhaps someone here can enlighten me on one important point: does anyone know if the raid-type, share and user/group information is stored on the HDDs in case of the 5big NAS2? Therefore, by plugging them into a vanilla system, it should recognize the disks and raid-status, and give me access to my data, right? Lacie is not very helpful on these things on their support website :-/


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:55 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:57 pm
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Fonzman wrote:
You are right - no leds, but the ethernet-leds! really really strange ...
Also the fan above the HDD-slots is not starting up. But I don't know if this is normal, if the system is cold. The power brick should be fine, as the system is only 6 months old. I had a lot of trouble with power bricks of other 5big (non-network-types), but they only occured after 2,5 years.

About the data, I think so too.
My 5big Nas2 came without disks, so it would be logical that the firmware resides on a flashrom instead of the HDDs. Therefore, the HDDs should be untouched by the fw-upgrade.

Yeah, it really seems to be flash related.

Fonzman wrote:
After some testing I removed all the HDDs to prevent potential data loss. Then I tried some things:
With the LaCie Network Assistant software, there is a recovery option. If google is right, this works via tftp.
The interesting thing is, even if the 5big does not seem to get a dhcp-address (according to my router), if I start the LNA recovery, the ethernet-led on the 5big blinks every 2 seconds. However no data transfer starts :-(
If I close the LNA, the blinking stops.

I tried to use a crosslink-cable and a normal switch between pc and 5big, giving the pc a 192.168.1.x address, assuming the 5big has a fallback address of 192.168.1.150 (I read this somewhere on the net). Then, following these directions (http://g300nh.blogspot.co.at/2010/06/fi ... overy.html), I manually did an ARP binding to the 5bigs MAC.
But LNA still does not start a recovery.
I also tried to PUT the capsule directly on the 5big through tftp.

So, next step will be clunc, I guess, and then I'll go on holiday vacation and wait for a reply of lacie. I hope the problem is covered by warranty, if I can't solve it myself ...
At least I can wait to access the data, as its not high priority :-)

I'm not expert in this thing, but if it flash related i think you can boot it via clunc/uboot.
Be careful if you send your drive to lacie it's probable that your drive comes without data, so save it first.

Fonzman wrote:
Oh, and perhaps someone here can enlighten me on one important point: does anyone know if the raid-type, share and user/group information is stored on the HDDs in case of the 5big NAS2? Therefore, by plugging them into a vanilla system, it should recognize the disks and raid-status, and give me access to my data, right? Lacie is not very helpful on these things on their support website :-/

I think 5Big NAS is like an upgrade to 5Big Network 2 (NAS OS 2) but with NAS OS 3, but not really sure.
If so, anything that can be changed by you in the admin dashboard panel is normally storaged in the disks.
You can see the partitions tables from several lacie nas in http://downloads.lacie.nas-central.org/Users/Mijzelf/ but it doesn's seem to have the 2big/5big NAS and ones.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:51 am 
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Fonzman wrote:
My 5big Nas2 came without disks, so it would be logical that the firmware resides on a flashrom instead of the HDDs. Therefore, the HDDs should be untouched by the fw-upgrade.
I don't think so. I think the firmware is installed on disk. The firmware on flashrom is only used when no firmware is available on disk (yet).

This is my presumption. I have no experience with a diskless Lacie. The reason I think so is that there are both diskless and preinstalled 5big2's, and AFAIK they share the same firmware updates. The firmware for the preinstalled 5big2 is designed to run from disk. Further the type of nand flash usually used in nas systems is slow. So running an OS from it would slow it down.

Quote:
does anyone know if the raid-type, share and user/group information is stored on the HDDs in case of the 5big NAS2? Therefore, by plugging them into a vanilla system, it should recognize the disks and raid-status, and give me access to my data, right?
The raid system is vanilla Linux software raid. So the raid data is stored in 'superblocks' on the partitions.
If I am right about the firmware, all other information is also stored on disk (on another partition). About putting the disks in another 5Big2, I don't know. On the preinstalled version there is some nasty eeprom which stores the uuid's of the raid arrays. With a non-matching uuid it won't mount it. You are talking about a vanilla system, in that case the eeprom should be empty. And maybe the diskless works different anyway. That information could be extracted from the initramfs in the kernel. But the scripts aren't easy to read.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:57 pm
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Mijzelf wrote:
On the preinstalled version there is some nasty eeprom which stores the uuid's of the raid arrays. With a non-matching uuid it won't mount it. You are talking about a vanilla system, in that case the eeprom should be empty. And maybe the diskless works different anyway. That information could be extracted from the initramfs in the kernel. But the scripts aren't easy to read.

Yeah i used that once when one of my disks was with a damaged UUID (viewtopic.php?f=156&t=1811&start=15#p5747), but that was on "2Big Network"...

Also as i told Mijzelf, i think is not a disks problem because i have other NAS (a "2Big Network 2") with exactly the same behaviour (only green ethernet led no more leds, fan doesn't spin also, neither the disks). And i can build a RAID array on Ubuntu without any problems and have access to all the data/partitions.
In my case i checked the logs and the last lines are when the NAS shutdown to gone to sleep (power saving hibernation), no errors and no more lines in the log, just never woke up again. Nothing to do with updates.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:56 am
Posts: 7
Hmm .. ok.
There is the 5Big Network 2 (I have) and then there is a newer version called 5Big NAS Pro (I have worked with already at my office).
The newest firmware for the Network 2 is 2.2.10.1 (with a size of ~75mb) at the moment.
NAS Pro has Firmware 4.0.12.2 (with a size of ~120mb) .. so its definitely different! (It also has other Ports, 2x USB2.0, 2x USB3.0 and VGA(!)) The NAS Pro also uses an Atom-CPU and 4GB Ram, wheras the Network 2 has an ARM-CPU and 512mb Ram.

My 5Big Network 2 came without disks. I bought the disks seperately (some Seagate consumer disks), so there was definitely no LaCie software on the disks!
On first boot it took about 5-10min .. so yes, probably it installed the FW on the disks in this time ..
I also found the Info about how the 2Big Network 2 partitions the disks. I have to confirm similarities for my 5Big:
* sda1: extended, 980 Mb
* sda2: xfs, md linear/raid1, user data, the remaining part of the disk
* sda5: swap, md raid1, 130 Mb
* sda6: Linux kernel U-Boot Image, 8 Mb
* sda7: ext3, md raid1, minimal root partition, 8 Mb
* sda8: ext3, md raid1, original firmware partition, 130 Mb
* sda9: ext3, md raid1, snapshots/upgrades partition, 696 Mb
* sda10: filled with zeroes (may be used for an alternate kernel), 8 Mb

Anyway, that doesn't help me recovering my system, as it seems FW on flashrom AND disks seems to be broken :-(

I tried clunc but it says clunc-open is not available. If I run "make" it always puts some cc-errors on my linux machine (Ubuntu 14.04 64bit). I didn't investigate further, but as clunc seems to work over IP, it doesn't help me much anyways.

Thanks, Mijzelf, for the information on the raid-structure! It calms me down a lot to know that the data can be read with a normal linux pc also.
Only thing is, I never worked with linux software raids before, so I don't know much about it ... But I am sure the internet will be helpful :-)

I am on vacation the next couple of days, so I let all this wait until I am back. Perhaps Lacie support has some helpful advice in the meantime. After the last days work I believe I have to send it in for repair anyways .. and I still hope it will be covered by warranty :-)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:28 am 
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Ho if it is a 5Big Network 2 it should be very similiar with 2Big Network 2

There a lot of info in 2Big Network 2 on the wiki
http://lacie.nas-central.org/wiki/Categ ... _Network_2

5Big NAS Pro has NAS OS 4, 5 Big network 2 has NAS OS 2

Reggarding clunc i never used it, but there is more info here how to now the ip address
http://lacie-nas.org/doku.php?id=uboot# ... ip_address
Edit: I just tested my bricked 2Big network 2 and i the ethernet leds are green and flashing but if i connect to my router i don't get an ip also.
So for what i understand i also can't use clunc (am i right Mijzelf?).
So how to connect to u-boot?
  • An cross ethernet cable directly from the PC to the NAS?
  • An usb cable?
  • Or only a Serial cable connected to the board (if so what cable should be bought)?

Also my fan doesn't even start. I also dissabmbled the lacie box and doesn't seem to be any issue with the hardware.

So i think Fonzman's and my issue is the same, and it seems to be at u-boot level, not loading the kernel somehow.

Reggarding linux raid "mdadm" is your friend!
Check this post (viewtopic.php?f=156&t=1811) but in your case is a raid0? with 5 disks.
the problem is how will you connect 5 disks (my case has 2 disks)! But surely that is something in ebay/amazon for that.

Fonzman wrote:
Perhaps Lacie support has some helpful advice in the meantime. After the last days work I believe I have to send it in for repair anyways .. and I still hope it will be covered by warranty :-)

If it's covered by warranty you can send then, if not ... good luck with lacie "helpful advice" :)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:03 am 
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Thanks, andreus, for the confirmation!

I'll definitely try to connect my disks to a pc with linux. I've configured them as Raid 6, to prevent data loss to a minimum .. haha, now I don't have access at all, even though the HDDs are ok :-)

Is it probably possible to repair the boot-partition on the raid itself somehow? As Mijzelf assumed the LaCie boots from there first, and only if no disks present makes a fallback to the flashrom ..


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:39 am 
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Fonzman wrote:
Is it probably possible to repair the boot-partition on the raid itself somehow? As Mijzelf assumed the LaCie boots from there first, and only if no disks present makes a fallback to the flashrom ..

The problem, at least in my 2big is that the disks don't even start (no lights, no spin, no fan), in other words, the NAS doen's even try to read the disks.
That's why i assume is at uboot level.

Oh, and merry christmas!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:18 pm 
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andreus wrote:
Reggarding clunc i never used it, but there is more info here how to now the ip address
http://lacie-nas.org/doku.php?id=uboot# ... ip_address
Edit: I just tested my bricked 2Big network 2 and i the ethernet leds are green and flashing but if i connect to my router i don't get an ip also.
So for what i understand i also can't use clunc (am i right Mijzelf?).

No, you are not right. Or better, maybe you can't use clunc, but not for this reason. The documentation you are pointing to is about mainline u-boot, which you should flash yourself. The stock u-boot doesn't request an ip address. Instead it's address is pushed by clunc itself using the -i option.

Fonzman wrote:
Anyway, that doesn't help me recovering my system, as it seems FW on flashrom AND disks seems to be broken :-(
Why do you think the disks are broken? Did you test them outside the NAS?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:37 pm 
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I don't think the disks are broke per se.
I just thought the boot order prefers the os from the disks, and as a fallback uses the os on flashrom. So if think my update broke the os on the disks first, and later it also broke the flashrom.
But perhaps I am completely wrong, and only the boot-part (u-boot?) Is broken, and everything else is fine. I definitely assume the data is still OK on the disks, but I can't test that until Jan 2015, when I have access to a machine with 5+ sata ports...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:20 pm 
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Mijzelf wrote:
The documentation you are pointing to is about mainline u-boot, which you should flash yourself. The stock u-boot doesn't request an ip address. Instead it's address is pushed by clunc itself using the -i option.

So to use clunc i just have to have the NAS and PC wired to the router and then:?

  • Compile clunc in Linux with "make"
  • Turn off the NAS
  • Run clunc with "./clunc"
  • Turn on the NAS


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:15 pm 
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./clunc -i <some-free-address-in-your-subnet>

@Fonzman: I can hardly believe that the firmware update actually killed your box this way. It's not usual to update the bootloader. But of course it is possible that the flash was already unreadable when you upgraded the box. The box runs fine without working bootloader, you only shouldn't try to reboot. And alas that is a part of a firmware update.

The strange blinking leds could be a 'reboot sequence' which is initiated before reboot, and normally reset by u-boot. In your case there was no u-boot, so the pattern remained until you powercycled the box.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:31 pm 
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there are two flavors of the 5big2, one that is delivered without disks and one delivered with disks.
The first version has a nand flash in which firmware and kernel are stored and an spi flash with a bootloader (u-boot). on this version when inserting a new disk without partition table the bootloader will initialize and format the disk and installs the firmware and kernel from flash on the disk When thats done it reboots and the firmware is loaded from disk. On this version you can destroy all data on the disk by pushing and holding the front button for 5 seconds when the system is booting. It then enters the installation as described.
If you have a 5big2 that was delivered with disks then it hasn't the nand flash with firmware, it only has the bootloader in spi flash and that will try to loads the firmware from disk. if the partiton structure is not ok are a damaged raid array then it won't boot. I am unsure if in this case the blue front led will illuminated, but so for on all lacie disks the main led is lit when as soon as the bootloader is active. The fact that the leds on your network connector is is because your router sends signal on it.

There is no way that a firmware upgrade overwrite the bootloader in flash (u-boot). Also a reset can not do this. It is only possible if you have used the u-boot command line and gave a command to erase the flash or to upload a (wrong) u-boot image not suitable for this box. From you post it seems that you didn't do such a thing

I am pretty sure that your 5big2 power supply has a problem.

@mijzelf, at a reboot the box goes through a reset, meaning it loads u-boot again. In first instance this ssems to have worked as the blue led came up blinking. The box became dead after unplugging the power in the time the led was blinking, which was a bad action anyhow (read the manual what blinking means). if u-boot was screwed by the firmware update it would have halted right after first reboot (AFAIK)


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